"Union officials maintain the contract is not reasonable for its employees. ". Really? And what exactly would be "reasonable". This union is clearly out of touch with reality. Unfortunately in the real world people do have to pay a percentage of their medical benefits. And these guys with their 100k salaries are complaining? Give me a break.

Yeah, but people in the "real world" don't get shot at or run into burning buildings for a living.

As if they run into burning building everyday. They knew the responsibilities of the job when they accepted it. As for risk, cops are not even in the top 5 or 10. Soldiers who risk their lives don't make $100k. Greedy unions out to bankrupt the taxpayer!

Cops run into a burning building every single time they walk up to a vehicle to approach a stranger who may pull a gun on them; every single time they go on a call to a house where someone is being violent and may attack them; every single time they work traffic detail and almost get hit by a car because of some moron in a hurry. Yes, they knew the responsibilities of the job when they accepted it--just like you knew the perks of the job when you didn't.

Mac - we can understand ur complaints about what cops make and how much they pay out - but in ur last post - 350pm 6/13 - it's dangerous for you to drive to work ( I don't know ur driving habits - maybe thats why you don't like cops) - but think - cops also drive to work and then spend a good portion of the day "DRIVING" thier patrol cars, responding to calls - sometimes emergency calls which require a little extra speed and then dealing with whatever happens - everything from a minor incident to a life threatning incident - whether thiers or someone else's - the whole time in a uniform that a portion of our citizens don't hide thier hatred for. Try it someday. If not - watch out for the dangers on your job.

Actually I have nothing against cops, nor do I have anything against how much they make. I think WO has a great police dept. The problem I have is how the union thinks cops should be immune to making concessions while everyone else in the world has had to do just that. Someone above mentioned the "perks" of the job. So while a lot of people are losing their jobs or having to take pay cuts, the union is asking the taxpayer to pay more to fund these perks for the police dept. Somethings gotta give. That attitude is not going to win the support of town officials or the taxpayers.

Also, in regards to "danger" and burning buildings, not many people realize that the vast majority of firefighters in the US are *volunteer*. They take on risk while getting paid zilch...

Cops dont get "perks" like weekends/holidays off or a bonus like the private sector. They have a high stress job and a low mortality rate after retirement.

They get paid 1-1/2 or 2 times the salary for the weekend work. So don't complain. People in the private sector do the extra work free.

What are you talking about? They do not get paid 1-1/2 or 2 times their salary for weekend work. They get paid regular time for a Wednesday, for a Sunday, and for Christmas Day. It doesn't matter what day of the week their shift days fall on. They only get overtime when they work overtime--just like in the private sector. I mentioned the word "perks" referring to the health insurance benefits. It's a great perk but a very well-deserved one.
"Statistically I have a higher chance of being injured or killed in a car accident driving to my office than a cop has of being shot on the job". MP, is this something you worry about everyday? Is this something your loved ones worry about everyday? I didn't think so.

Police work and firefighting are dangerous and stressful jobs . These jobs require many skills and superior physical conditioning. Energy sapping shift work and working in all kinds of weather are requirements of the jobs.; A tow truck comes to the house . The driver is a Newark fireman. A group of police officers who frequent a restaurant all own landscaping businesses. A man doing work on our house says he does a lot of work for an East Orange fireman, who owns a house painting business . Someone walks into a Jersey City bar. All the employees are Jersey City police officers. A Newark fire fighter profiled in The Star ledger owns a deck building business. I believe the 24 hour shifts were instituted to make it easier to moonlight. What advantage is there to the taxpayer ? How does it enhance public safety? They work a dangerous and stressful job 24 hours in a row, then go to do a roofing job or mow lawns . Why don't the police have 24 hour shifts ? I don't want people doing dangerous and stressful work burning the candle at both ends and the middle too. If a police officer or a fireman goes out on disability , would we know if they were hurt on their first, second or third job ? These people are paid by tax dollars . Instead of resting and staying in condition on their days off, they invade the private sector and take jobs from the very people who MUST pay them. How is that free enterprise ? And don't the police have a monopoly on security work ? What's left ??

Mac, if I was constantly working overtime and not getting paid for it, I'd not only be annoyed but I'd feel pretty foolish that my employers were taking such advantage of me.
And, John Prignano, do you really think it would wise for a police officer to work 24-hour shifts? Unlike the fire department, police work is CONSTANT. I know a lot of cops and I don't know ONE who works a second job. Maybe the Jersey City police officer owns the bar and likes to keep other cops on staff because he wants to keep it safe. Ever think about that?
Everyone keeps complaining that police get this, police get that. If you knew all of this, why didn't you go to the academy and decide to put your life on the line every day for the taxpayers who so admittedly appreciate it?

Mac and MP. Your comments don't do much to convey your point of view as they are ripe with envy. You sound like a couple of guys who just couldn't "make the cut" for the Police or Fire Department. You probably took the test years ago and either didn't do well on the written, or failed the physcial and now you see an opportunity to make attacks against professions you were not able to enter. Civil Servants were not posting jealous attacks against private sector workers, dot-com"ers and the like when the economy was strong so refrain from attacking us now. IT IS NOT OUR FAULT the state government has refused to make their pension payment obligation for years. THAT is the reason the pension system is not solvent and THAT is a political maneuver that is beyond our control.

@Mac @MP: The recent PBA vote of 63-0 was a vote against greedy politicians that are collecting 2 pensions and that are fiscally mismanaging the budget. These greedy politicians demand give backs and concessions and yet concede nothing. It's a vote against "back room" deals and "behind the scenes" agreements amongst the politicians that help line their pockets with taxpayer's money. It's a vote against politicians using their elected offices to further their private businesses. We know the truth! Politicians raid our pension funds and blame us for the reforms that are needed. They collect 2 pensions, hold multiple offices and our salaries are too high. Where's your outrage MP & Mac that Taxpayer money supports greedy politicians. We know the truth! Stay strong PBA 25

KB - I don't doubt for a minute that the politicians are greedy. That happens everywhere and in all forms of politics. It sounds like the police dept. is getting screwed either way. They either accept the town's offer and have to pay a percentage of their medical benefits and/or salary concessions, or they reject the town's offer completely (as they have done) and several officers remain unemployed.
So what do you suggest as a solution?

@Mac: layoffs/demotions are the final budgetary moves when the town has cut spending and unnecessary services are cut. Police Officers were cut but the "employee of the month" program was "down sized", not cut. Police Officers were cut but extra details were/are being paid for i.e. Main St craft fairs, parades, fire works, festivals etc. Police Officers were cut but a 5 year "payout plan for retirees" was rejected. What about the 2 pension politicians? Didn't towns around W.O. cut back to save jobs? What are towns like Montclair, S.Orange & Livingston doing that W.O. isn't or can't do. They didn't layoff/demote. Where's the money from all the retirements going? Many Police Officers and Firefighters retired early to save jobs! I'm tired of the Unions being blamed. We offered ideas and concessions and they were ALL rejected by the town! Honest, open & fair negotiations is the answer.

KB - wasn't the town able to avoid all layoffs in the fire department? What did the fire dept. do differently that the police can't do (or are unwilling to do)?

@Mac: the town refused all ideas, concessions from the unions. It was agree to 7.5% of the salary or else. Do you know that on 3/15/11, the deadline to accept the offer, the town was prepared to cut 16 firefighter positions and as of last week firefighters were promoted and hired. And don't forget they have since received a revised contract from the town. In less then 3 months firefighters were promoted, hired and given a new contract. I don't think the town knows what they're doing.

Sometime I see one cop car stops a woman for speeding and minutes later another car joins in. And we get the impression in this forrum that cops are busy chasing criminals and running into burning buildings, LOL. I see cops in Shoprite, library, schools, with the utility repair crew, etc. I guess pretty demanding job!

When Councilman Krakoviak was a Tax Watchdog and council candidate , he strongly criticized the town for soaring taxes and the one shot budget gimmick used to balance last year's budget . Jack Sayers was there for all of it. But now , Krakoviak says he thinks Sayers is doing "an excellent job " and Sayer's salary is a lot less than Livingston's B. A., so Sayers is a bargain. .Krakoviak now boasts that this is the second year in a row that West Orange has delivered a no tax increase budget. One shot gimmick ?? Apparently , he thinks the town denying the public it's right to initiative and referendum on school construction is a good thing. Krakoviak has now seen up close the wealth that Sayers and Richard Trenk have built through " public service ' and political connections. He sees how well Team Spango and Team McCartney and the youthful Cirilo and Anderton are doing. The road to wealth and affluence runs through City Hall. Krakoviak will argue trivialities and minor points, but he will not debate or protest anything of substance, because he clearly has joined The Team .

I hope the savings from the pension and benefits bill to be passed soon will be passed to the taxpayers. Unless the property taxes are reduced, no one in their right mind will buy a house in West Orange. Stand firm Mayor, against the union bullhorns.

(More response to Mr. Prignano) 3. You are incorrect to say that I would deny any West Orange resident initiative and referendum. First, I can’t because residents are allowed to challenge and defeat any law the council approves under our form or government. Also, you appear to totally misunderstand my position on the town borrowing millions of dollars on behalf of the school district under the state “shared services” law. This strategy avoids the state requirement that any school bonding get voter approval, and I have repeatedly voiced my opposition to it. Moreover, I was the only councilman Tuesday to vote against bonding nearly $20,000 more which the district spent on the high school football facility months after the work was done without first obtaining approval of the change order. You can confirm this by watching the video of the council meeting for yourself at www.westorangegrassroots.org.
4. I have no idea what you’re talking about in terms of me and ‘wealth and affluence” or joining “The Team.” I continue to strive to represent all residents of our great town and vote in the best interest of the town overall. I’m the only councilman not taking the annual $14,000 stipend. I continue to be independent in my thinking and voting. My approach to “team” is, first, the one that voted me in last November with nearly 50 percent of the vote, and second, I’ll work with anyone who wishes to help improve the affordability of our town.

Mr. Krakoviak: I voted for you the last two times you ran for public office. Will you please work hard to lower the taxes in the interest of the suffering taxpayers? I hope you won't hand over the taxpayers money to unions to pad their undeserved income and benefits. Home values are plummeting in West Orange due to high taxes. Check out 40 Old Indian Road on Zillow.com. The house is listed for $499,000, but the property tax is $20,000. Who will buy this house? The police union? Most of the cops don't live in the town.

@MP: while you sit here and criticize the unions you fail to realize and or accept that greedy politicians in the state, county and yes, here in W.O., are collecting 2 pensions, holding 2 offices simeltaneously and using their political offices to further their private busineses i.e. the insurance industry. ALL at the TAXPAYERS expense. They raid the pension system and fail to payback the money. ALL at the TAXPAYERS expense. Millions of dollars in W.O. have been wasted on "bad" contracts for police/fire/dpw equipment that continues to sit unused in vehicles and offices. ALL at the TAXPAYERS expense. The town continues to staff an inordinate amount of lawyers. ALL at the TAXPAYERS expense. Too many dept heads are given take home cars and dept issued cell phones. ALL at the TAXPAYERS expense. And where is the attrition and or layoffs/demotions concerning the multiple layers of administrators at the B.O.E.? ALL at the TAXPAYERS expense! Let's vote out Greedy politicians that line their own pockets behind the scenes.

Our taxes are high because of all unions - police, fire fighters, municipal employees, teachers, administrators, etc. They all make very high salaries (and enjoy free benefits) compared to the average salary of the resident here. Yes politicians are included too. At least we can vote out the politicians but the unions are costing us our houses. How can you justify paying $20,000 property tax to pay for all this largess to public employees. This is criminal.

@MP: then vote out the politicians that "collectively bargained" those benefits and salaries if you feel that way. Many of those politicians are still in office today. Have the courage right here MP to list the names of politicians that you feel are hurting the W.O. taxpayer. Will you or can you do it MP? I doubt it! Term limits at all levels of gov't will help eliminate the political greed and culture of back room deals.

We voted out Corzine at the state level and it is showing now. Thank god we have a courageous governor. We voted down the school budget last year. If enough people pay attention, we can vote out everybody in WO as well. Only 20% vote in school elections. They should move the election to Novemebr and you will see results. I will never vote for Codey-Mckeon ticket. McKeon raised our taxes 8% a year.

Mayoral candidate Parisi said he would collect $1.3 million in uncollected fines and fees if he were elected. Has that money been collected, or was Parisi's pledge one of those " I'll say anything to get elected"things .like his mentors are famous for ?

Police/fire dont pay into social security so they have to live on their pensions and savings alone. They also pay a ton of money into thir pension. With all the money they pay into their pension they could have just as easily have put it in an ira and have just as much money so stop whining about their pensions

Don't try to make us believe 401k is better than pension. I would love to have the municpal employees moved to 401K plan to save the taxpayers a ton of money.

@MP: you have the right to feel the way you do about the unions but try at least to post some facts or examples on how to better the system. I have asked you to name politicians that you feel are hurting W.O. taxpayers, I have posted examples of wasteful spending in town, I have posted ideas, examples of concessions offered by the unions during these negotiations and I have posted names of politicians and their "buddies" that I feel are hurting the system. Back up your feelings/opinions with courses of action etc. Unless you do your posts are "comical'" at best.

You never posted any financial analysis to back up your claim. Why don't you say how much the cops are making with over time, how much pension they will get starting from what age, how much they pay for heath care, how much they contribute towards pension, how pension is calcualted (inflated last years's income!), how much money the politicians are making through doub dipping, etc. You cannot stop spending money on town's festivals and other things and pay everything to the cops. Town needs this kind of things to make it a coherent town. How many WO cops live in WO? You post all the information you have to back up your claims.

@MP: The police pay 8.5% of their salary weekly into the pension, plus state and fed'l taxes etc. We don't contribute to social security. If current legislation passes we will pay 10% of our salary into the pension. Currently 1.5% of our salary is deducted for health benefits. Pensions are based on salary after 25 years of service. It appears that based on the above approx 20% of our salaries, give or take %, are deducted immediately before we take home a dime. That's pension, state/fed"l taxes, health deductions. You comment that you see officers on road jobs, kmart, shoprite etc., well those are officers working part time jobs to supplement their primary jobs just like most citizens. Most officers/firemen I know must work 2 jobs to support their families, but yet we're not the ones complaining, it's guys like you. Now please post your occupation, deductions, pension/401K etc. so we can continue this discussion.

Actually, paying 10% into a pension plan really isn't bad at all. That's about what I contribute to my 401k plan and 401k's have big risk. I would pay 10% into a pension any day since at least you are guaranteed the money is there when you retire. 401k plans are a joke...they give a false sense of savings (as many people who have tried to retire the last few years have found out). 401k's are completely dependent on the market, where at least a pension is guaranteed and backed by the PBGC. Plus with 401k you end up paying taxes when you withdraw the money anyway. Over the last 10 years I probably could have earned more in a low-interest savings account than in a 401k plan.

@Mac: 1) But you don't have greedy politicians raiding your 401k plan (like our pension), spending the money on pet projects and then blame the workers when they can't replenish the pension fund. The workers become the scapegoats and all the taxpayers get hit with the bill. I still don't see tort reform, term limits and increased insurance competition to help drive down the costs of health care for ALL citizens. Greedy politicians are in bed with the insurance companies and lawyers representing same. In many cases greedy politicians run their own law firms and or insurance practices while holding elected offices.

2) Please post your occupation, deductions, 401k/pension contributions, salary etc like I have to further this discussion. I hear a lot of complaining on the patch from guys like you and MP but I don't see the numbers etc from you guys.

Its so funny to me that these ppl sleep safley in their beds at night because brave men and woman are willing to put their lives on the line for them and they think that all cops are entitled and sit at shop rite all day...i work in one of the worst cities in nj and trust me im not sitting at shop rite collecting my measly south jersey salary thats not even close to 100k get educated and get a clue or stfu