Edison Redevelopment Project Gains Preliminary Council Approval
Council passes two ordinances on first reading, approves resolution
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[Editor's note: This story was updated at 10:30 a.m.]
The plan to redevelop the Thomas Edison battery building on Main Street is one step closer to becoming reality.
Following more than two hours of public comment Tuesday, the township council approved a resolution and passed two ordinances on first reading, authorizing the finances for Phase I of the $250 million project.
Phase I calls for 333 luxury apartment units for-rent and 18,500 square feet of retail space in the Edison battery building. It will also include a 635-space parking garage and a Jitney service to both the Orange and South Orange New Jersey Transit train stations.
The approved resolution grants a 30-year tax exemption for the developer, Prism Capital Partners, LLC.
The township will instead enter a payment in lieu of taxes (PILOT) agreement with Prism, whereby the developer agrees to pay a reduced amount to the township instead of regularly applied real estate taxes.
The PILOT payments are predicted to be roughly $950,000 in the first stabilized year, according to Eugene Diaz of Prism. The PILOT will increase every five years in the 10th year at a greater percentage than regular taxes to reduce the difference.
The first ordinance authorizes the township to issue $6.3 million in general obligation bonds to the developer to pay for infrastructure costs and places a special assessment on the property. The second ordinance outlines the financial agreement between the township and Prism.
As part of the agreement, the developer agrees to repay 50 percent of the issued bonds to the township, with interest.
Residents React
Residents were torn on the issue and while some praised the plan, others questioned the financial partnership between the township and the land's developer.
Donna Uher, a resident of Llewellyn Park said, "I love history, but I don't want to pay for it. Public-private partnership, great. But why does my part of the partnership have to be putting up money to guarantee? Do I get a part of the profit if it's successful? You (Prism) take that risk and leave me out of it."
Others said issuing the bonds to the developer was comparable to giving them a "bailout."
"This developer doesn't have the financial wherewithal for this project. They never had it, they are looking for a bailout," said resident Kevin Malanga.
While the dissenters agreed something needed to be done downtown, most were staunchly opposed to the issuance of bonds by the township.
Councilman Sal Anderton, who also sits on the redevelopment committee, said he was "open-minded" to residents' concerns, and clarified the financial risk involved with the project.
Of the $6.3 million in bonds, he said $3.1 million of the debt service would be paid back by a special assessment on the property. "It's not something that is going to come out of tax dollars that you and I pay … What's the impact on your taxes? None. The impact is entirely on the properties that receive the special assessment," he said, adding that issuing assessments were not unprecedented in the township.
In addition, the township will receive revenue generated from the project that will pay for the other half, he said. The township's risk is "contained," he assured.
Many cheered the move and said it was a long time coming.
"I think we've talked enough, it's time to stop talking and start doing something about making that property a vital part of our community," said resident Bill Sullivan.
"Partnerships are two way streets … both sides have to give something, both sides have to make some type of commitment for the greater good. The greater good here is that hole in the wall."
John McElroy, a downtown business owner, said the project would bring jobs to the township and benefit the business community in town, "The revitalization will bring hundreds of new residents downtown."
Councilwoman Patricia Spango said she was sympathetic to residents' complaints and was also concerned about the accuracy of the traffic study, parking and public safety issues.
Spango, though, maintained that she believed the project would benefit the entire community. "I've seen the change and the deterioration of this site. I am a firm believer that as goes Main Street, so goes the town. If we don't do something, it's going to trickle throughout the town."
Affordable Housing Concerns
Councilman Joe Krakoviak thanked everyone for packing the auditorium at Thomas A. Edison Central Six School where the township meeting was held.
However, he expressed explicit concern with the affordable housing obligation required by the project.
State law requires a municipality to meet an affordable housing obligation whenever they build a house or commercial building, he said. But while the township incurs that obligation, the developer usually meets it.
Phase I will require about 44 affordable housing units, Krakoviak said, adding that the township is planning on getting a waiver so the obligations will not have to be met in the first phase.
"We are going to take a huge risk if we allow that to happen and if the state gives us the waiver to do that," he said. "I am very concerned about us moving off this obligation without getting any risk management in place, something that makes sure that we don't have to pay for it."
The council will meet March 6 to vote on the ordinances on second reading.
If both ordinances are approved as well as additional resolutions next meeting, the developer must still garner approval from the zoning board before proceeding with construction. Construction is expected to take 20 months.
Tom G.
8:18 am on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
So what is the next step? Does this approval mean the developer can start working on phase 1 of the project?
Ryan
9:37 am on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
There's another vote in a couple of weeks. It needs to be approved there before it can proceed I believe.
Tom
9:43 am on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
Sure...Luxury Rentals...does anyone remember the luxury rentals in East Orange? West Orange would better off to force the developer to the original plan or leave the site vacant.
This has been a Classic "Bait and Switch"
Gary Englert
2:24 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012
The "preliminary approval" noted in the article is really a procedural misnomer: the Council approved the ordinance "on first reading" meaning it has been accepted as an item on which there will be further debate and then put to a vote.
The next Council meeting is March 6th and I understand Mayor Parisi will be scheduling another open, public presentation by the developers, which will provide another opportunity for questions and answers.
As to Tom's suggestion this is some"bait and switch" scheme, I'd opin that his is an uninformed decision. Discussion of redeveloping the battery factory area has been ongoing for the 51 years I've lived in town and the current process really began in 2003.
This has been debated ad nauseum and a very viable plan, with people willing to back it with hundreds of million in investment money, is in place.
Leaving "the site vacant" is not an option and the time to move forward is now.
Adam Kraemer
6:55 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
If it is a viable plan it could happen with no bonding from the town.
Gary Englert
9:46 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
This is a redevelopment project which, in both theory and practice, is supposed to be a public-private partnership.
You seem to forget that we induced and invited Prism to invest in West Orange with a promise of cooperation.
The very modest bonding proposed represents the Township's sole financial commitment to date and will be primarily devoted to upgrades of 100 year-old Township/utiltity owbed infrastructure upgrades and public amenities.
Fifty percent of the cost of the bonds will be paid by the developer through an annual special assessment and the balance will be more than offset by the annual payments in lieu of taxes (PILOT).
The Townhip routinely bonds to finance infrastructure improvements which are done on a rotating basis each year: $3 Million for LLewellyn Park (last year) and $2 Million for Nestro-Manger road (this year).
Alan Sanders
9:15 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
The viability of all these numbers is based on the assumption that people will rent and money will flow in. As I asked at the meeting: If you were in the market for luxurious living, would you move to downtown West Orange? Who will the renters be that will pay high rents to live in a depressed area. As one resident commented to me, this plan is backwards. Build attractive commercial properties that serve renters and create a magnet. This project has no magnet except to build a secure facility isolated from it's surroundings.
Alan Sanders
Gary Englert
9:58 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
@ Alan Sanders: It would seem that you lack historcal perspective and knowledge of the process.
Frankly? While you are entitled to your opinion, your concerns about the viability of the project and it's design and projected use is immaterial: these matters were discussed, debated and decided years ago by the Townhip Council, Planning and Zoning Boards.
The initial requests for proposals resulted in universal agreement (from those willing to invest and lead the project) that a mixed residential-commercial use was what was economically viable and appropriate for the designated redevelopment zone.
Of the alternate plans submitted by competing developers, Prism's design and vision was the one selected.
It's all fine and well to opine that "I think a shopping mall, casino, amusement park, light industrial complex, park, etc." would be a better use for the site, however, nobody who was ever willing to invest the time, effort and money agrees with such fanciful suggestions.
Tom
11:07 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
51 years of discussions? And I should accept rentals?
No commercial anchor tenants.
Originally to be condos not rentals.
Classic"Bait and Switch"
Gary Englert
12:06 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
@ Tom: Classic "bait and switch?"
Hardly!
It may have escaped your attention but, in the midst of bringing this project to fruition there was a world-wide financial meltdown and the primary initial financing (Bank of America) was withdrawn as a result.
Central to and and coinciding with this meltdown was a paradigm shift in residential real estate prices, sales and mortgages and a coresponding rise in demand for rental properties.
Long story short?
Financing is available for rental properties and not condo projects.
"You" do not have to accept anything since "you" aren't putting up the money for the project.
The Township is issuing bonds to assist in the renovation of 100 year old infrastructure it (and utilities) already owns and would otherwise be responsible to maintain; it's being done now because the project overwhelms its existing and ancient capacity.
The Township routinely bonds to renovate infrastructure throughout town. and the possibility of your personal property tax bill being effected by any of this is virtually nil.
Tom G.
11:35 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012
I have been torn on this project. It's basically a catch-22. Nobody wants to rent in an area where nothing is going on, but on the other hand, businesses do not want to open in an area without potential customers. But I sympathize with Alan's concerns. I just don't see anything that would attract a person to rent a luxury apartment in downtown WO. I think there is too much competition from better locations like Montclair (and for the younger crowd, Hoboken and Jersey City). There is nothing particularly appealing about the site - surrounded by a run down neighborhood in Orange to the east and south, and the WO public works to the north. Ultimately though, I would vote in favor of this project and assume the risk, because something, anything, needs to be done at this point to clean up that area. If this project falls through, that's it.
Will Rod
12:06 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
We all need to focus on the true cost of this project. Its not the small bond for infrastructure, thats a distraction. The real costs will result from increased use of our roads, schools, police, etc. from new residents of this project. To make this attractive to a developer they are being granted a tax exemption. But the exemption creates the risk that residents of this project will use more of our infrastructure than they are required to pay for. This will be amplified if the developer is unsuceessful renting at the "luxury level" and is forced to seek more modest renters who typically have bigger families. The result will be higher taxes to offset the increased usage from residents of the Edison project. Their taxes wont go up, they have a contract, we do not.
Anyone who claims to know how sucessful this project will be is either foolishly confident or ignorant. The real estate market and the US ecomony are still struggling to recover and are fragile at best if not difficult to predict in the near term. Its perfectly logical to question the success of this project and its impact on taxpayers.
Gary Englert
12:32 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
@ Will Rod: If we each had a fully functioning Crystal Ball, our lives and futures would be so much simpler and absent so much trepidation and worry. Alas, that is not to be and, at some point, we much act based on the best data and historical perspective available at that specific point in time.
While an act of faith no doubt, it's also far from simply casting our fate to the wind.
A successful developer is willing to bet a quarter billion dollars on this project's success and they aren't in business to fail.
The risk of overburdening our schools and infrastructure is far more prevalent, and always has been, within the long existing single-family housing stock in town; against which 333 luxury apartments is a veritable drop in the bucket.
Gary Englert
12:09 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
@ Mac: The bottom line is that people with far more knowledge about, and documentable success in, such projects believe this is a viable plan and have already put substantial money where their mouth are...with much more to come.
What anyone else thinks is their very subjective and since we're not in the business) far less educated opinion.
Let's get 'er done!
Will Rod
1:35 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
How many of us need a crystal ball to realize unemployment is above 8% and is not expected to come down anytime soon. Take a look at the home affordability index or mortgage rates. Both show that its very beneficial to buy today, not rent. You cant just say blindly that these guys know what they are doing because they have done it before. There are abnormal times and the probability of failure is noticeably higher today than during the real estate bubble.
Tom G.
1:57 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Despite low mortgage rates it is much more difficult for people to obtain a loan today than it was a few years ago. And the economic uncertainty makes people less likely to buy a home given the higher risk of job loss and inability to make mortgage payments. There was an article on CNN.com just this week noting that home prices have hit a 10 year low. Why? Because people are not buying due to reasons I mentioned. They have to live somewhere, which leaves renting as the only other option.
I'm not suggesting this project is the perfect plan as I would have preferred retail. But that's water under the bridge at this point.
Gary Englert
2:39 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
@ Mac: Whatever anyone's personal and subjective opinions and preferences for the site might be, not developer was willing to support and finance anything other than a mixed-use (residential and commercial) plan.
Very early on, it was determine that neither the property, Main Street nor the surrounding streets could support the resultant traffic and parking requirements if a building the size of the battery factory being utilized as purely retail space.
Will Rod
2:32 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
Mac you totally missed my point. These units are being proposed as luxury rentals which implies they wont be cheap to rent. At a certain price point (rent), it might make sense to buy. Home prices "appear" to be bottoming but we wont know for some time. Part of real estate turnaround is dependent on loosening lending standards, governmental policy and employment. My point is there is a ton of uncertainty in the system still. I reject the notion that we should all go along with this because its the best idea on the table right now. False. If its a good idea now, it will be an evern better idea when the economy improves. At that point, it will have my support. Right now, we cant afford to be wrong.
Gary Englert
2:50 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
@ Will Rod: With taxes for the typical luxury condo in town (Eagle Ridge) at +/- $12,000 annually and monthly maintenance fees of +/- $500 per month after a +/- $350,000 buy in (and no guarantee of any appreciation), a flat monthly rental of $2,000 or more WILL be attractive to a great many people for a facility with similar ameneties.
This isn't just the best idea on the table; it's the only viable one to be advanced in more than 50 years and, in addition to already putting $60 Million into it, Prism has stood behind the project for most of the last decade.
The risk to both the Township and the taxpayers is minimal and, in the worst case scenario, we'll have bonded and refurbished streets, sewers, curbing and utilities we would have had to in the normal course of business anyway.
The likelihood of any property owner seeing their taxes rise as a result of this project is remote.
Will Rod
3:31 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/57-Musano-Ct-Unit-57_West-Orange-Twp_NJ_07052_M69110-10681?source=web
Attached is an active listing for Eagle Ridge of $230,000. $350K is what they were selling for years ago.
I cant believe you have the audacity to proclaim taxes have a remote chance of increasing as a result of this project. You have no idea. I simply stated that tax increases are the biggest risk to a project like this. Thats is undeniable! But dont worry folks, Gary said they will not...laughable.
Gary Englert
8:24 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
@ Will Rod: So, what's your point?
There are condos for sale in Eagle Ridge at various prices from $200,000 to $549,000 as indicated on this link:
http://homes.trovit.com/eagle-ridge-west-orange-nj
Are there those who would prefer to rent rather than buy one?
Of course there are!
There's no audacity of naivete anywhere in the opinion I'm advancing (that he likelihod of Edison Village adversely effecting anyone's personal property tax bill is remote) and, unlike you, I'm not hiding behind a screen name when I give it.
When you gain enough courage of conviction to actually put a name, face and reputation behind an opinion, you might accomplish something.
James Johnston
12:09 am on Friday, February 24, 2012
I have to agree with Tom that the projections/expectations for the Edison project are completely unrealistic. The reality is that we have been sold another pie-in-the-sky project by people have no history of successful real estate development. The next decade will be very difficult for home sellers, especially in marginal markets. While the rental market will remain strong, I cannot see this project commanding high rents, given the location. It will not be a gated community like Eagle Ridge. By the way, $550k is 50 percent above the next-priced unit and unlikely to sell for that.
Gary Englert
12:59 am on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ James Johnston: Before opining we are being hoodwinked "by people who have no history of successful real estate development," I would suggest you take a more than cursory look at both Prism and Greenfield's websites and tour some of the properties/developments detailed therein; to include the former Organon site.
Clearly your assertions have absolutely no basis in fact and I would conclude that these people know exactly what they are doing.
As far as the $550,000 condo for sale in Eagle Ridge, please understand that not all condos are created equal and (location, location, location being paramount) this is the only one currently for sale that boast a NYC skyline view.
For what it's worth, the single family homes along the ridge of First Mountain (on Ridge Road and Eagle Ridge Drive) are all multi-million dollar, luxury properties that many people would kill for to own.
If a NYC skyline view, without the attendant maintenance and upkeep headaches of a single-family detached home, is your cup of tea, a $550,000 condo is a bargain.
richard lackowitz
6:17 am on Friday, February 24, 2012
Hey.....what about this idea??? Since the leaders of the town live in town....why not pass an ordinance requiring current elected officials and those seeking future election opportunity to reside in the upcoming development?
Gary Englert
9:07 am on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ richard lackowitz: Cute but, also nonsensical and nothing that will further public discourse on the subject.
Gary Englert
12:57 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Throwthebumsout: And your posts smell like little more than anonymous nonsense to me.
Alf
7:23 am on Friday, February 24, 2012
Hey there Mr my face & name are an open book, put your money where your BIG mouth is. If you will pay for all of us, when the small chance of taxes increasing happens, then you will have the respect of the townspeople that you seem to crave. We are pushed to the limit financially as it is, I for one am not willing to take this chance.
Gary Englert
10:52 am on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Alf: I already have all the respect I need. Unlike you, however, I don't spout nonsense while cowering behind a screen name.
OK, I'm so confident in the success of the redevelopment plan that I'll take your challenge and indemnify you from any personal property tax increase as a result of anything that happens relative to the issuance of bonds in support of the Edison Village project.
We should probably put something in writing, which will require you to provide me with your name and address.
I'm guessing that I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for it, should I?
Paul Corrigan from West Orange
1:00 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Gary knows in his heart of hearts that somehow this is a scam and the tax payer is going to get boned. C'mon Gary. You are smart guy- You know it is some sweet deal for some elected official. Fight against this and you will be the next mayor.
Gary Englert
1:13 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Throwthebumsout: Knowing our past and present public officials, and believing them to be of good character and wishing to enjoy the company of their children and grandchildren (and none wishing to spend time in a jail cel)l, I don't believe this is a "scam" or that anyone's in it for a "sweet deal."
If you have evidence to the contrary, come out from behind your screen name, make your case and present your proofs.
Until you do so, you're spouting nonsense and engaging in unsubstantiated character assassination.
barry_geltzeiler
12:07 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
I laugh at the fact that unamed people suddenly become "luxury rental real estate experts" but the developers (who not only are real estate experts with a proven track record in town and out) not only have the resources to put upto 250 million dollars into a project in our town but are willing to do so are the bumbling idiots.
All it costs us is a 6.5 million dollar bond issue that most likely will be paid by the developer. So our "in town resident real estate experts" want us to turn this money away and wait for another developer to come along? priceless totally priceless!!!!!
richard lackowitz
12:10 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Gary.....lighten up. Breathe slowly through your nose....exhale slowly through your mouth. None of this will matter 100 years from now....trust me.
Gary Englert
12:29 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Throwthebumsout: Well, though I'm not so sure our "Our politicians are so much smarter than 'we" are" but, they surely are a lot smarter than you.
Unlike you, they also have enough courage of conviction to put a name, face and reputation behind the opinions they form and the decisions they make.
Guess what?
The entire Edison site and much of the valley (remember radium remediation on the West Orange-Montclair border?) was an industrial site long before toxic waste was determined to be a hazard anyone was concerned with.
Such material has already been removed from the battery factory property itself and provisions have been made should anything similar be found in the surrounding streets, with the removal process monitored by the DEP.
Keep spouting anonymous nonsense from behind a screen name and thinking your gaining any traction but, you're not.
Why?
Because in addition to being a coward (and nobody follows one) you also don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Gary Englert
1:41 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ richard lackowitz: I've survived a shooting war, fly high performance airplanes and jumped out of them for kicks; the point being that none of this is raising my blood pressure or heart rate at all.
I'm a life-long resident of West Orange who believes in its future and if combatting unbridled nonsense is a way to help us succesfully get there, I'm happy to oblige.
Paul P
12:44 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Saying that Prism has a successful track record, is debatable. As others have said, look into the company, but look beyond the pretty Prism website and look into the companies financial records and the other projects they have on the table. Before we carry Prism on our shoulders down Main St., as the savior of the town, their financial records speak for themselves.
Gary Englert
12:55 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Paul P: What financial record are you speaking of; what have you personally examined; what do they tell you and what are your personal credentials that give any gravitas to whatever your opinion might be?
Absent your providing answers to the aforementioned questions and putting a name, face and reputation behind them, you post is just so much anonymous nonsense, isn't it?
barry_geltzeiler
12:55 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Prism has withstood an incredible economic downturn with a collapse in real estate values over the past 4 years AND is still able to finance this project. you are correct Paul P, their record truly speaks for itself!!
Paul Corrigan from West Orange
1:41 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Keep up the fight Gary. I like that you are passionate about your position.
Gary Englert
1:50 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Throwthebumsout: Passion comes easily when you're right and I am where the redevelopment project is concerned.
Paul Corrigan from West Orange
2:49 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Just busting chops Gary. I have a lot of respect for your work with Vets and for your service.
Gary Englert
2:58 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Throwthebumsout: Thanks but, you're not gaining any respect for yourself by posting nonsense from behind a screen name.
Tom G.
3:13 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
This is obviously not the first time an apartment complex has ever been built. What has happened in other towns with similar projects? Were taxpayers impacted? What are the general occupancy rates for this type of building and what action have developers taken in situations where apartments could not be rented? We can argue all day about what may or may not happen as a result of this project, but we should be able to make educated assumptions based on historical data.
Gary Englert
4:41 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Mac: Previously asked and answered and the information is posted on the Township's website.
Here's the link to the specific document:
http://www.westorange.org/vertical/Sites/%7B8A554F92-3545-4CD9-932E-F8D91F1C9B8B%7D/uploads/Retail_Market_Study_for_Edison_Lofts_Phase_1(1).pdf
Will Rod
4:52 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Gary thanks for posting this link. I have read some of the other documents but missed this one.
Its very telling. The only rents below $2,000/month are 1 Bedroom apts. Now lets all try to be objectives here, thats alot of money!
The market analysis includes apt complexes in Montclair, Glen Ridge, Livingston, South Orange and Verona. Really? I did notice a couple comps in Bloomfield and Belleville which are a much better comparison but they are outnumbered by the former comparisons.
Page 15 is great. It basically illustrates that the Edison project is inferior to the comparables in a number of key areas and that they intend to compensate for that through amenities and finishes. I guess granite countertops will entice me to live at Edison as opposed to the beautiful Siena in downtown Montclair?? It also says that residents of Edison will use the municipal shuttle to travel to public transportation.
My opinion is that the majority of these comparables are in much nicer neighborhoods with better school districts and Prism will struggle to get a similar rent. However, Im not surprised to see the market value analysis support the pricing scheme of Prism since they paid for the report. Please read it and make your own decision but please speak up!
Will Rodriguez, Gregory Ave Section, 10K in taxes for a house assessed at 283K.
Gary Englert
5:27 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Will Rodriquez: First, you are to be commended for your candor and willingness to post your full name and location.
When push come to shove, we may well just have to agree to disagree but, let's do so without rancor.
I think the study (yes, commissioned by Prism and done by Coldwell-Banker) is reasonable and done not only for public consumption but, for the benefit of Prism/Deerfield's investors, as well.
They (the investors) are clearly far more savvy than most of us as Greenfield's sole business is as a real estate investment consortium.
I would disagree that the comparables are in "much nicer neighborhoods" and would also opine that West Orange is a step or two above either Bloomfield of Bellville.
Every community, frankly, is unique in its own way and I don't have a big issue with the comps provided.
Don't feel pregnant about your taxes friend, I was paying that 20 years ago on my home on Colony Court.
Paul P
5:07 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ mac .Some of the information posted on the towns website is outdated and some of it is questionable. Traffic studies, amount of new students added to the school system, parking, etc. have not been revised for the scope of the new project.
And to have someone on this forum questioning my credentials in the field of real estate development , is ludicrous. Why not ask the people voting for this project what experience they have ?
The majority of West Orange residents are against this project, and we only ask to be informed and allowed to voice our opnions and have them answered in a truthful manner. To treat us with the lack of respect we have received so far, has only proven that once again,corporate money pouring into a small town and local politicians campaign funds, will always trump the will of the voters,
Gary Englert
6:22 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Paul P: When someone is offering an opinion about an issue (financial statements) generally requiring specific academic training, professional certifications and practical experience to analyze and understand, it's entirely germane to ask about that individual's credentials.
As you were doing the former, I was did the latter and I note that you have neither answered the questions I asked nor presented your credentials.
The people "voting for the project" have spent a total of 23 years on the Council, much of it overseeing the progress of the matter.
Collectively, they hold seven different undergraduate and advanced degrees and have pofessional expertise as an attorney, educator, small business owner, public housing authority manager and financial journalist.
I know each of them well enough to believe that none would compromise their ethics or sell their vote based on a campaign donation; what such donor will get is the same fair hearing that anyone not so inclined to such minificence would get...and nothing more.
To suggest that some corruption is afoot is just the worst kind of anonymous, unsubstantiated character assassination but, yes, the Township solicited, induced and enticed corporate money to be poured in as that is the nature of a redevelopment project.
Why?
Because there is no other way to do what has needed to be done with the battery factory for more than 50 years.
You say the majority is against this?
Would you care to prove that?
Paul P
7:47 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
I think I must apologize to Gary for my lack of intellect and academic credentials. I could fax my high school and college transcripts to you, but am afraid that you would scrutinize them and use them against me in a public forum.
Since when does the citizens of constituency need academic training, professional certifications and practical experience to question their government on matters that will affect our lives?
The combined years of the town councils experience and their combined academic and business achievements is still far less than the vast wealth of knowledge , combined, of the citizens who have questioned this project. If you require proof of a residents qualifications to ask questions to elected officials, then you may need to read the American Constitution.
You seem to want people to be less transparent about their identities when speaking in a public forum. So a bit about me. 40 year resident of West Orange, High School and College graduate, resides on the top of first mountain. And my name is Paul.
Gary Englert
8:13 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Paul: We began this exchange with you posting the following:
"Saying that Prism has a successful track record, is debatable. As others have said, look into the company, but look beyond the pretty Prism website and look into the companies financial records and the other projects they have on the table. Before we carry Prism on our shoulders down Main St., as the savior of the town, their financial records speak for themselves."
It is a statement rife with innuendo, suggesting you've examined financial documents (though didn't specify them) and reached certain conclusions (again not specifified) implying some weakness (again, not specified).
I simply asked you to clarify all this and present the credentials that support your expertise in reaching whatever conclusions you did...as either both have some basis and gravitas or they do not.
Thus far, you've failed to answer the questions asked and danced around the reasonableness and efficacy of my asking them.
If you know something of any substance and have an opinion, please share it with the group.
If you'd like it to be regarded as anything more than anonymous nonsense, you'll stand behind it and present your credentials...it's not rocket science and an entirely resonable request...it's also very much in line with what is reasonably considered scientific method.
Tom
7:48 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Garry,
The commercial space in the CVS plaza has been empty for years!
So if they build it they may NOT come and the developers will then try to change the deal again. (Bait and Switch)
The change from condo to rental is NOT minor, and would have never been approved.
I am glad you use the word scheme to describe the effort to make the unapproved changes. scheme...scam...close enough
Gary Englert
8:26 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Tom: Yes, the storefronts at CVS have been empty for years and a redevelopment project a block away is likely just the thing to fill them up again.
We're going in circles here, Tommy, as the change from condos to rentals is a functionof the world-wide financial crisis and the resulting paradigm shift in the real estate/mortgage/financial markets.
Have you been living under a rock the last four years?
If condos were saleable and profitable, and Prism could obtain the financing to build them, they'd be proud as punch to do so but, they no longer can...nor can or will anyone else.
What's past if prologue and there's simply no going back; financing for condo projects of this magnitude is simply unavailable and likely won't be for the forseeable future.
Thinking there are other developers waiting in the wings with the money to build what you think should be built is simply delusional.
Paul P
8:40 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
As I said before, and I stand my statement, I am a 40 year resident of West Orange. And as a resident for 40years, I have lived in this town through the recession in the 80's - early 90's, the economic downturns and upswings, the periods the town went through massive over development for the sake of "rateable's" , the sweetheart deals given to developers, the inability of previous and current town councils and govt to do what is right for the citizens and the town, and not themselves.
You are a politician, pure and simple, and you work for Mckeon, who's pet project this was. I understand your role as cheerleader for this project, But to insult tax paying citizens, by implying they are neither educated enough, lack the credentials to speak their minds, and regard what they feel and say, as anonymous nonsense? This is the reason why Americans are so distrusting of govt. The " we know whats right for you" mentality.
I stand by what I said previously, and do not feel I need to furnish you with any proof of what makes me qualified to speak my mind. A simple internet search of the companies involved with this project, their past performance, the money they contributed to PACS, political contributions etc... are freely available to anyone willing to take the time to research.
Gary Englert
9:31 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
@ Paul P: Never having held an elective office in my life, I can't possibly be called a politician in any sense of the word.
Politically savvy? Yes. Politically active? Yes. Employed by McKeon? Hardly.
I'm a legislative aide and consult with him and assist constituents in my areas of expertise; veteran advocacy among them. I receive a very, very modest annual stipend, that doesn't even cover my out of pocket expenses, not a living wage.
I hate to break this to you, Paul but, I'm not "insult(ing) taxpaying citizens" by pointing out the folly of the posts you're making here. Who and what you are is anyone's guess. You could claim to be whatever you wished and just as well be some 15 year old kid cruising the Internet in Mom & Dad's basement. Given that you've shied away from the simplest of challenges, that's as likely as anything else.
As I've said here, and elsewhere, if you (or anyone else) has evidence of corruption, criminality, malfeasance or misfeasance, you should bring your allegations and proofs to the appropriate authorities and action will be taken. Making sweeping anonymous condemnations of everyone and anything won't accomplish a damned thing. It does take a pair and maybe you need to grow some.
If you've been around for 40 years then you should know who I am, that I've done exactly what I'm suggesting you should do and that I know, first hand, that it works.
I've seen corruption and fought corruption and this isn't it. It is progress.
Tom
10:06 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Garry,
It is not my responsibility to make a Prism project profitable.
I support the plan that was originally approved.
I am opposed to any change from condo to rentals and urge residents to voice their opinions.
Frankly your "Cheerleading" is sickening
wohopeful
11:07 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
Another Internet forum polluted with Gary Englert espousing his credentials and telling everyone else that they are wrong. How sad Mr. Englert, you really should get a life.
Paul P
11:51 pm on Friday, February 24, 2012
I would have responded earlier, but you know us anonymous 15 year old kids who are interested in local politics, we have homework and stuff to do.
Anywho , I suggest anyone interested in the tangled web of lies that led us to this point in time, google search - Attorney Richard Trenk organon , for some interesting late night reading.
Gary Englert
12:01 am on Saturday, February 25, 2012
@ Paul P:
More anonymous nonsense, huh?
Yeah, that's the ticket let's pillory Richard Trenk again for being part of a group of investors submitting the highest bid for a piece of property (that anyone was free to bid on), rehabilitate it, lease it and return it to full taxpaying status before any other piece of the Organon parcel.
Was this accomplished with any advantage accruing to him from his position as Municipal Attorney?
Nope, not one bit...so good luck with that Paulie Walnuts.
Paul P
12:16 am on Saturday, February 25, 2012
Sorry Gary, I posted that for the people who have an open mind and want to learn something about how the whole mess started. And let me LOL @ them being the highest bidder. Since it was a closed door bidding process and the lawsuits from the other biffers, leads me to be a little skeptical. But who am I to question any of this? You obviously know more than anyone in WO about this subject, maybe because you are privy to info we were never allowed to see ?
I can't trust anything you say, as a McKeon mouth piece you are one sided and seem to relish in destroying the democratic process. You can try to intimidate and bully people with your one sided arguments, but the facts speak for themselves.
Paul P
2:10 am on Saturday, February 25, 2012
Who's reputation have I trashed ? What is this so called agenda I supposedly have, that bubbled to the surface? I don't doubt you are passionate about this and many more issues pertaining to West Orange, But when you take a civil debate in a forum, to a personal level, insulting people, calling them names, and pretty much acting in a threatening manner, then maybe you are the immature one.
What's next, going to send the goon squad to rough me up and keep my mouth shut? Who the hell are you, oh yes I forgot, your The West Orange know it all, a second rate nobody who flashes his credentials like its supposed to mean something. Well it does, it proves your a McKeon crony, nothing more, nothing less.
Gary Englert
12:09 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
@ Paul P: Please spare us all the righteous indignation.
It's absolutely impossible to be at a "personal level, insulting people, calling them names and pretty much acting in a threatening manner" with a couple of anonymous morons cowering behind computer keyboards somewhere out in cyberspace.
Accordingly, I'm identifying you as exactly what anyone with half a brain is able to discern you are, given what information we have: a cowardly, anonymous Internet nitwit spewing unsubstantiated nonsense.
Deal with it.
Paul P
2:13 am on Saturday, February 25, 2012
I liked the other township attorney from the previous administration, at least he wasn't shady
Gary Englert
2:15 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
You "liked the other township attorney from the previous administration, at least he wasn't shady?"
Gee, I guess you missed his being charged with, and pleading guilty to, embezzlement and his subsequent disbarment, huh?
Paul P
2:31 am on Saturday, February 25, 2012
I've changed my mind. I fully support the Edison building project. Those units are going to rent like hot cakes. The major selling points according to the market study was that people will flock to them for the chance to live in an upscale community, in a historic building, that has high ceiling and nice toilets.
Tom
10:58 am on Saturday, February 25, 2012
Oh Garry!
You are such a Hero!
We should approve all your ideas immediately!
Thank you King Garry!
Paul P
2:41 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
The apartments will have a doorman. That sealed the deal for me. A fancy apartment, in a upscale community, with high ceilings, fancy faucets, and a doorman. If the front is facing main street, will the doorman be stationed there? Is he (or she) going to be like those doormen in NYC, in green suit with a top hat and white gloves?
I can see a very well to do woman, in a mink stole , asking the doorman if he knows of a pharmacy and pizza place close by ? " Well of course madame" he replies in a British accent. "The very ritzy Rite is to the left, and the 5 star Dominos pizza is just to thee right madame"
Paul P
3:32 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
So it's not really a doorman, it's a security guy who sits at a desk. Well that minor mistake in the brochure still won't dissuade me from renting there. The amenities alone make it worth it. The units , with the well noted high ceilings, and large windows, are the perfect place to throw a dinner party for my new hip neighbors. My butler , Mr. Belvidere will serve Wheat Thins with cheese, and stare at the gorgeous view of the sun setting over the auto body shop.
Paul P
3:56 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
Not from my unit, I want one close to street level, no way I'm parking my car in the parking garage. That's a big hassle, having to leave my apt, walk down the hall, get on an elevator, go to parking garage, use card key, leave parking garage. I'm parking out front. So you're wrong, the view my guests will gaze at , is the auto body shop.
Paul P
4:19 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
From a conceptual view, a sunset can be seen from anywhere, with a western view. The horizon can differ from where a person is standing. Yes the mountain will obscure the view of the sun setting "over the mountain" but my view will be of the sun setting over the horizon I can see from my apt window in Edison Village. The lowest apartments are on the 2nd floor, over the ROR'S , and if I grab the apt I want, then those gorgeous large windows, will capture the last rays of light as the suns sets from my angle, over the body shop. But why take my word for it, Google Maps street view of Main St shows the sun setting over the body shop. Your just jealous of the views I'll have over the upscale community that will surround my new apt, that I will use for entertaining hot chicks, and if they are lucky, I'll show them my granite counter tops, wink.
Tina Thomson
4:19 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
After reading the comments from individuals on the above article I would like to express my disappointment. The thread became nothing more than an insult, mudslinging banter between individuals on a public forum. I have lived in this town for over 23 years and was insulted by the tone of the posts. This is a poor reflection on the town of West Orange for residents and non-residents who might read it.
Gary Englert
4:25 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
@ Tina Thompson: I've lived in town for 51 years and post under my own name specifically toward refuting the kind of anonymous nonsense and character assassination that seems to pervade this and other message boards.
So long as websites and webmasters allow people to hide their identities behind screen names, this virus of incivility will only grow.
I reserve the right to offer my opinions, as well as defend them and myself when attacked...which is precisely what I'm doing here.
BESkala
4:28 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
I agree with Tina Thomson. Stick to the topic.
Tom
4:57 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
Approving the project as rentals is very far from the project the residents of West Orange were sold.
The project would not have been approve as rentals.
It has been a "Bait and Switch"
And I believe when the project does not perform as the developers have promised, they will be back again to change the deal/scope...Again
Rentals are a bad idea for the area.
Gary Englert
7:31 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
@ Tom:
A little analogy Tommy: as you "walk Main Street every day," do you give a second thought about whether or not the cars parked or passing you on the street have been purchased outright, financed, leased or possibly rented?
I could ask precisely the same question about the homes and buildings along your path; do you know or why do you care?
What it all boils down to is that there are various methods of financing fundamental needs that, in the broad scheme of things, makes no practical difference.
You're sounding like the proverbial broken record and there has NOT been any "bait and switch."
Funding is no longer availabe for condominium construction and mortgages; there is constuction and mortgage funding, however, if Edison Village is a rental property.
It's no more complicated than that and repeating nonsense won't make it any truer with subseqent tellings.
Paul P
5:23 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
Tom, a better analogy would be, if they told you they were going to build a 5 star restaurant there, and they they turn around say they are building a McDonald's instead, because due to economy people would rather have a cheap cheesburger, than an overpriced steak. Would you think that was a bait and switch ?
Gary Englert
7:52 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
@ Paul P:
That would be a bad analogy as there's a considerable difference between let's say Highlawn Pavillion and Mickey D's but, none at all between Edison Village as condos or a rental property.
The design, amenities, fit, finish, even the toilets are exactly the same; the ONLY difference being that the fannies sitting on them will be paying rent instead of making a mortgage payment.
Why? Because financing for condo projects disappeared with the financial crisis and is no longer available.
That's NOT "bait and switch" but, practical reality.
It's no more complicated than that and repeating nonsense won't make it any truer with subseqent tellings.
Tom
8:10 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
Well said, Paul
Thanks
Gary Englert
9:25 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
@ Tom:
"Well said, Paul?
Hardly but, nothing you've posted thus far has any basis in common sense, let alone docmentable fact.
Nothing about the basic design of Edison Village has changed, only the payment method of those wishing to reside there.
Paul P
9:54 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
Renters instead of buyers. How will this drastic change affect the services, schools, traffic etc of the area ? Will the money the town collects from the Pilot program be stretched thinner due to this "drastic change" Seems the exclusivity that comes with owning high priced condo units suddenly disappears, when you open it up to people who are just renting., and now they are merely apartments.
Gary Englert
10:27 pm on Saturday, February 25, 2012
@ Paul P: Fair questions but, the independent market study done by Coldwell-Banker in November suggests otherwise.
Condos, townhomes and luxury high-rise rental properties simply do not contribute to school populations the way single family detached housing does...as all historical data and our experience in West Orange clearly indicates.
The peak school population in our history was circa 1970 when there were +7,000 students in the public schools. Despite the condo-townhome boom of the 1980s and 90s, we've yet to reach that level. Ergo, there was sufficient housing to domicile that many students 40 years ago.
With more than 15,500 housing units in town, these 333 luxury apartment are a vertiable drop in the bucket.
The far greater risk to the schools will come from turnover of single-family homes by the WWII generation (now in their peak mortality years) and their children (the "Baby Boomers") who have already reached or are nearing retirement.
The risks associated with Edison Village pale in comparison.
And it's far from a "drastic change!"
Same design, same amenities, same number of units, same population, same projected income demographic...rent payment rather than mortgage for residents...and that's it.
Jack Durschlag
9:25 am on Sunday, February 26, 2012
OK, folks. I have gone in and deleted some of the more obnoxious attacks in this comment stream.
I had hoped I wouldn't have to remind folks of the terms of service for Patch users and you'd self-govern yourselves.
The comments are getting too personal. I'm going to be forced to close comments for this article if people don't quickly become more civil and stop with the personal attacks and insults.
This is the last warning.
wohopeful
11:13 am on Sunday, February 26, 2012
Thank you Mr. Durschlag. While a passionate topic some can never seem to refrain from personal attacks, name calling and references to inappropriate language. It does nothing to promote a civil discussion and debate on the matter.
James Johnston
11:54 am on Sunday, February 26, 2012
i must agree with Tina Thompson and the other posters who decry the vile and vicious comments from Mr. Englert and several others, who have turned a spirited debate into an adolescent shouting match. Wrap yourself in the flag, invoke the spirits of our forefathers, but stick to the facts without stooping to personal attacks on everyone who holds a different opinion. The strident and insulting comments serve only to undermine your position and demean yourself.
Tom
1:10 pm on Sunday, February 26, 2012
Hey people lets stick to the topic.
What are your positions on main st project?
Do you think the project should be converted from Condos to Rentals?
Adam Kraemer
1:19 pm on Sunday, February 26, 2012
My issue with the downtown redevelopment is philosophical in nature. I don't think our municipal council or others involved are doing any thing for personal gain or out of bad will. The intent of improving downtown is sincere and good. The issue that the local government should not pick winners and losers in the real-estate market. Also it is not the function of government to mitigate risk for those who invest in a given property. If Prism does well with in the confines of a free market that is great for them and those that invest with them. If not and the loose money that is the risk that grown up investors take and corporations take and and the downside should not show up on the books of the township and as a liability for us taxpayers in any way shape or form. Also tax abatement is just an other word for shift the cost to someone else and guess what we the taxpayers are that someone else.
Gary Englert
1:57 pm on Sunday, February 26, 2012
@ Adam Kraemer: Your issue is then with the legislature as both the theory and concept of redevlopment has long been accepted as a public good, with rules and regulations to encourage it promulgated and memorialized in public law.
We cannot in good conscience have some paradigm shift after following the proscribed criteria for most of a decade and having induced an entity to invest +/- $60 Million in Edison Village.
Your continuing this line of discussion only encourages the uniformed to revisit related issues that have long been decided and are no longer germane, such as the general nature of the desgn and mixed-use nature that have long since been approved.
The salient remaining issues to be determined are pretty much twofold:
1. Should the Township allow a change from condo sales to rentals (in the residential portion of the project) in order that the developer can secure financing?
2. Should the Township approve the issuance of $6.3 Million general obligation bonds (to finance infrastucture improvements and public amenities), the carrying costs for which will be covered (50-50) by an annual "special assessment" (against Prism) and income from the PILOT.
That is where our atttention should be devoted as nothing else is truly open for discussion; most everything else having been examined, debated and approved.
Paul P
1:22 pm on Sunday, February 26, 2012
It's an insult to the voters and tax paying citizens of a town, when they are being told, this is the way it is, it's this or nothing, to bad. Yes, at this point it seems the project is a done deal. But how we got here is still a tangled web of insider deals and lack of transparency. This piece of property was packaged in a deal with the sale of the Organon property. A group of secret investors was put together by the then town attorney, to purchase the Organon property, while this same town attorney was "consulting" with the then mayor and govt on the redevelopment plan and districts.
We were told no one wanted to buy Organon property at the time so the then town lawyer took the proactive step to find a group of investors to buy the property, without any bidding from other outside investors, because supposedly no one was interested in the property. This is called pay to play, common in NJ , not totally illegal, but very shady.
So forgive me if I dredge up the past as we look into the future of this project that has been "forced" upon the town. Maybe they should finally admit that this project is only going forward, not because it was the best one for the town, but it was the one they are now being forced to agree with.
Gary Englert
1:40 pm on Sunday, February 26, 2012
@ Paul P: Your analysis and summary are a complete obfuscation of what occurred, during the project's history and without basis in fact.
Again, and as previously advised, if you have proof of malfeasance, misfeasance and/or anyone's violation of any fiduciary responsibility to the public, there are appropriate law enforcement authorities and agencies to which they can and should be brought.
Absent your doing that, your anonymous nonsense is nothing more than that.
Gary Englert
1:23 pm on Sunday, February 26, 2012
@ James Johnston & wohopeful:
Please spare us the very selective, righteous indignation.as I engaged in totally civil discourse until personally attacked and seeing others' character assassinated anonymously.
I feel no need to apologize for defending myself and others here as I wrote nothing I would have been ashamed to say in public or to anyone's face, if being attacked in such fashion.
The problem is the people so inclined would never do such a thing without the cover and anonymity provided by a screen name..
If The Patch truly wishes to further civil discourse it will require people to register and use their verifiabnle given names when posting, rather than the "imaginary friends" we all should have long since outgrown.
I'm please that the majority of my substantive posts remain here as the information is both germane and accurate.
Paul P
1:50 pm on Sunday, February 26, 2012
In the age of identity theft, govt eavesdropping, the ability for strangers to poke and prod into our personal lives, and for personal safety, a bit of anonymity is not a bad thing. A first name, and living in the town, is enough " credentials" for me exchange information and thoughts, with others in this forum.
This was and is a bad project for West Orange. The PILOT money alone is a drop in the bucket and cannot possibly cover the added expense brought on, by even a small number of new citizens in town. A few years down the road our taxes will have to cover these overages. All it takes is one family with a special needs child moving into town, and half the PILOT money is gone, poof. And that's just one example.