So do what I suggested in a previous thread: get the developer (who seems to agree it will only be 30 kids) to agree to pay, directly to the school district, some agreed-upon fee for every child over some reasonable cap, like let's say 45. If they're so sure they won't exceed that number, they should be happy to agree to it, and doing so should relieve the school board concerns as well.

Also: it's disingenuous to say the worst-case scenario of 60 kids is less than 1% of the existing district population -- much more appropriate to divide 60 by the current enrollment of Hazel & Washington, since in the worst case, they'd all be in elementary school, right?

I have not heard anyone mention the tax dollars that would come to the city and the school district from additional businesses. These tax dollars need to be factored into the equation of the cost for educating students. Businesses are good for school districts. However, we can not add many more students to the district without needing additional space. Measures must be put in place to limit the number of students who can reside here. The town plans to pay thousands of dollars per student from the revenue that is generated from this project. The town needs to be concerned about how many students they want to send off to the district, so it is in their best interest to limit the number of students who can live here. I like Ken's idea but I would simply propose that the number of students allowed to live in this facility be limited to the a set amount of money that is allocated from the money received from the developers. We can not afford to allow an unlimited number of students to use our school district. This needs to be put in the housing regulations and it can never be changed.

@ Ken & Mark Paulson: As I've said repeatedly, the peak school population in our history was achieved (circa 1970) when student enrollment exceeded 7,000; a number we remain well shy of today. This, of course, was long before the condo-townhome construction boom of the 1980s and 90s. The point being that there has long been more than enough housing in town to totally overwhelm the capacity of the schools, if it was occupied by school-aged children. The fact remains that all the projections (concerning townhomes and condos) were exceedingly accurate: they simply don't effect school populations the way single-family, detached housing does. Rather than the 30 kids that might live in Edison Village (who would most likely be rather evenly spread between 13 grades and not two grades schools), the biggest problem we face is the turnover of single-family houses. Keep in mind that we are in the midst of the peak mortality years for the WWII generation and that their children ("The Baby Boomers") have reached reached retirement age, or will do so shortly. There are a great many in both classes still owning homes in town and many of those will be available for sale in the not distant future.

Gary, Does this mean that you support or oppose the Edison development plan. All I know is that Liberty and the High School are filled to the brim. It is hard to move in the halls. There is no more room for many more students. I support the project but the concerns regarding additional students must be addressed.

@ Mark Paulson: While the complete (revised plan) for Edison village has yet to be presented, yes, I'm inclined to support it based on the ifnormation currently available. True, any impact on the schools must be considered and allowed for but, the risk posed by the project shouldn't be over stated or exaggerated. The simple fact remains that the turnover of fifteen single-family homes will likely have more impact on the school than Edison Village ever will...and there are already +/- 18,000 domiciles in the Township...little more than a third of which are currently housing school-aged children. In terms of risk of over-populating the schools, Edison village pales in comparison.

Curious?

If Hazel and Washington schools could be impacted by the development why would the developer be asked to give space for the pre-school presently housed at Pleasantdale? If there was a opportunity for a school to get "space" shouldn't it be for the schools in the development community that are already overcrowded?

@bnelson: The Board of Education has the clear ability to shift the geographical boundaries as to which children (living where) go to what grade school. Creating available space in any one can serve to reduce the poulation of others.

The BOE is a joke. If you were to watch the kids get off the school bus in the afternoon at Watchung, Lakside and Park Avenues, you would see a quarter of them keep walking east bound into Orange and some walk as far as East Orange.

Why don't you report them? Your accusation doesn't make any sense.

This is all a ploy by the greedy WOBOE to raise taxes and waste more of our hard earned dollars. We need to stand against this project and not be sucked into the lunacy of the WOBOE which is notoriously wasteful in their spending and completely fiscally irresponsible.

The Township simply cannot maintain what they presently have. To build more schools or ad onto what we already have is out of the question in these hard economic times. This project on Main Street is a great idea, but the taxpayers cannot handle anymore. Ask Joe D to finance this, he seams to be doing alright with the county money for restarants

This is the worst development project I've ever heard of. Why add more rentals? What does that do for a community? Nothing.

Serious question: how are the luxury units on Vose in South Orange working out? Obviously they have the serious advantage of being extremely close to a well-served train station and being in an area of that town that isn't just starting to be re-developed, but knowing that they were fully rented with a long waiting list might tell us one thing, while knowing they were half vacant (despite their major advantages) would almost certainly tell us something else.

Nobody can say this project is a good idea until the developer or the town can answer: What happens if the units cannot be rented? Will the building sit abandoned? Will the developer turn the units into affordable housing and we get stuck with a big housing project downtown? I just don't see how rental units do any good for the town, especially with a developer paying discounted taxes. Plus we have competition from Montclair and South Orange that have a big advantage with their proximity to train stations and nightlife.

@ Jonathan L, Mac and Ken:

A review of the following documents (found at www.westorange.org) may answer some of your questions and address your concerns:

http://www.westorange.org/vertical/Sites/%7B8A554F92-3545-4CD9-932E-F8D91F1C9B8B%7D/uploads/Edison_Village_Downtown_Redevelopment_November_2011.pdf

http://www.westorange.org/vertical/Sites/%7B8A554F92-3545-4CD9-932E-F8D91F1C9B8B%7D/uploads/Retail_Market_Study_for_Edison_Lofts_Phase_1.pdf

Also remember that this is a millionaire developer who has stalled this project for years hoping that they can find some sorry politician who can convince the hard working taxpayers to pay millions towards their project.

You can bet every last dollar you have that when this project fails this millionaire developer will turn it into low income housing projects leaving the good taxpayers of WO to deal with all of the ills that that type of element brings with it and not receiving the full tax because of the discounts puppet Mayor Parisi is in favor of giving out. All thanks to the failed puppet Mayor Parisi and his millionaire developer friends.

I read through the 2 documents posted above by Gary. What I still find most troubling are the outrageous prices for these apartments, and the "study" mentions that these prices are 10-15% below other similar properties. There are some 1BR apartments listed for over $2k. All studies aside, based on common sense I just can't see people paying that much to rent an apartment in a suburban location like WO, that is not easily accessible to public transportation, nor easily accessible to any significant nightlife or entertainment. You can easily rent an apartment in Hoboken or Jersey City for $2k that is within walking distance to public transportation and within a short 10-minute commute to NYC. If you read through the doucments, there are a lot of "inferior" ratings comparing this proposed property to other existing properties. If these plans go through I really hope for a success story, but we can't be naieve about the situation either.

@ Mac: "All studies aside, based on common sense?" is hardly the wasy to go. I rather think that the people putting up the money, and who have the skin in the game here, are proceeding on the best advice (and market studies) available. My common sense tells me these are businessman who aren't in it to fail and who are making business decisions towards insuring its success. You're entitled to your opinion but, that's all it is...one man's opinion.

West Orange does not need more section 8's which is what these millionaire developer friends of puppet Mayor Parisi are trying to get over on the hard working taxpayers with.

Say no to Parisi and his Section 8 Housing plan!

@wohopeful -- it's clear you have very strong opinions on this subject (and many others pertaining to our town). Why not have the courage of your convictions and put your name to them? Perhaps then your arguments would be given more serious consideration. Anonymous comments like these allow you to be dismissed as part of the problem, not part of the solution.

@Gary - by "common sense" I mean that I have first hand experience with the rental market. I don't need information from some study. I rented an apartment in both Jersey City and Hoboken for a total of 10 years before moving to WO 3 years ago to start a family. As a renter, I did not even remotely consider living in WO when I could live in JC/Hoboken for much less, be in the middle of the nightlife, and be 10 minutes from my job and recreation in NYC. I didn't even consider Montclair, and as far as I'm concerned Montclair has much more to offer than WO.

So my question to you (or anyone) would be, what is 1 thing that would attract a person to rent a 1BR apartment in WO for a whopping $2k considering all the other, better options out there?? It just doesn't add up, and I'm speaking from first hand experience.

@ Mac: I don't know that your personal preferences and considerations (now 13 years past) are particularly germane here. They are personal and subjective and I can think of many reasons for people to rent, rather than own, in West Orange. Please consider people who are downsizing from a single family home (who like the town) and are looking at alternatives. To buy a 1-3 bedroom condo in one of the higher-end communities in town, a $300,000 - 400,000+ buy-in is not uncommon. Should one pay cash, taxes and monthly fees will still meet or exceed $20,000 a year out of pocket...with no guarantee there will be any appreciation in what is still a volatile market. With that in mind, spending $20-30,000 a year in rent for a luxury rental (health club, indoor pool, concierge service and sheltered parking) is more than attractive. I commuted (by car) to NYC for work for many years and our close proximity is still one of the attractions (albeit, not Hobokenesque and, yes, no train) of living here; in terms of geographic location, the relatively short drives to the shore, Highlands lake region, Poconos, Catskills, Newark-Liberty and three general aviation airports are also draws for many. While NYC is certainly the regions major commercial/employment hub, Newark, Parsippany, Roseland and Morristown (among other North Jersey communities) do draw significant numbers of commuters who work there and live elsewhere.

The municipality should stay out of the real-estate business. It should focus on public safety, and public infrastructure which are the primary missions of a municipal government.

@ Adam Kraemer: Since that horse is long since out of the barn, let's deal with reality, shall we?

Common sense is to ask who in their right mind would want to pay 2k per month to live in the slums of West Orange when for the same amount they can live in the same lifestyle in Hoboken, Jersey City, or Weehawken all of which offer much better surroundings and amenities?

These rentals will become section 8's before the first shovel hits the dirt.

Say no to the tyranny of Robert Parisi and his millionaire developer friends.

@wohopeful: Common sense is to ignore the lunatic ravings of a cowardly, anonymous Internet nitwit and that's just what reasonable people are going to do. Again, moron: 'Tis the season to be jolly; get your shrink to up your meds and wash them down with a couple of Egg Nogs.

The repeated name calling and insults of Mr.Englert show that he has absolutely nothing to add to this discussion other than his repeated nonsense and inability to refute the truth and common sense. How could we expect a non-property tax paying citizen to understand why this development project is no good for those residents which must write out the quarterly check to pay for it.

These millionaire developer friends of Mayor Parisi have stalled this project every step of the way for years with one intent in mind and that is to get the taxpayers of West Orange to underwrite their project. If this is such a great project for these millionaire developers then let them go forward and fund it themselves and stop asking the hard working taxpayers for funding and long term tax abatements.

No one in their right mind is going to pay the execssive rents to live in the slums of West Orange. Take a ride through that area and then ask yourself if you are willing to rent an apartement there. Think about the recent murders, car jackings, and other crime that is rampant in the area and ask yourself if this is someplace you would be willing to live. There is no major public transportation nearby, no major employers or businesses just steps away that you can walk to, no practical shopping areas to walk to for your groceries or other sundries and there are no parks or public areas to relax in.

If the millionaire developer wants to foot the bill to move the project forward so be it, but do not expect the hard working honest taxpayers struggling every quarter to write the check to pay their property taxes to now underwrite the development and also kick in tax abatements for years to come. It jsut isn't fair and Mayor Parisi should be ashamed for proposing it.

Since you seem to be behind on the news Ms. Cumming:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/04/liquor_store_clerk_killed_in_w.html
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/12/22/n-j-carjacking-suspect-heads-to-court-wednesday/
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/authorities_arrest_west_orange.html
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/09/8_busted_in_west_orange_liquor.html

The bus service that runs along Main Street can hardly be classified as "major" public transportation and would require any commuter traveling to Jersey City or New York City to change service multiple times, hardly a convenience. Colgate Park is at least a mile away form the site and would require a 20-30 minute walk one way. And no one would find shopping in the small convenience stores scattered amongst the vacant store fronts and drug dens an attraction worth paying luxury rent for.

"Mr. Woho"...this is the best you can do? Our area is well aware of the shooting at the liquor store, which was a targeted act and not some random crime that you would like to lead folks to believe. There are more carjackings in other parts of town, probably yours. I have only heard of a car jackings and robberies in the 15 years we've lived here in this area. Most of the car thefts occur when people leave their cars running unattended. And I would imagine the developers would see to it that a nice area for seating, with walkways, trees, etc. would be incorporated into their plan. Now Ms. Cumming has better things to do today than bicker with someone who stole her screen name in the hopes of ... well, I'm not sure what. So try to have a nice day and in the spirit of the season, go do something nice for someone if you can.

wohopeful: Common sense is to ignore the lunatic ravings of a cowardly, anonymous Internet nitwit and that's just what reasonable people are going to do. Again, moron: 'Tis the season to be jolly; get your shrink to up your meds and wash them down with a couple of Egg Nogs.

Alexander the Great once encountered a soldier who was crying. The soldier said that he was scared and that things would never get better so there was no reason to fight. Alexander asked the soldier his name. The soldier said that his name was Alexander. Alexander the Great became furious and said to the soldier," either change your attitude or change your name. Now I am saying the same thing to WOHOPEFUL There are many reasons to support this project. My reasons will be published in the West Orange Chronicle in their next issue. People who oppose this project better be able to offer an alternative plan to restore this historic area. These complainers offer no suggestions. Who wants to hear that?

Anyone who has read my posts knows that I am skeptical of the project. What I don't understand is why we need rental units. What is 1 reason that rental units are good for the town? My proposition was for a major retail store like Target. Aside from Kmart we have to drive all the way out to route 10 for shopping. Why give our tax dollars to East Hanover? Yes traffic may be an issue, but I don't see how it could be much worse than 300+ apartments in which most units would have at least 1 car. My other idea was for a park which would beautify the area. I shouldn't have to drive to Verona to enjoy a park setting.

How are the developers supposed to make a profit on a park?

These millionaire developer friends of puppet Mayor Parisi are free to do whatever they would like with their parcel of land, however anyone who thinks this will have any positive impact on the West Orange slums probably also think they can put lipstick on a pig and win the Miss America pageant. It isn't going to happen and everyone knows it.

What is worse is that these millionaire developers want millions of dollars in taxpayer moneys for their project and then have the gall to also expect long term tax abatements. This is not good for the taxpayers of West Orange.

@Wohopeful: Listen carefully...you're having one of your delusions again; the recurring one where you think you know what you're talking abut when you clearly don't. Please call your skrink and get back on your meds.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what WOHELPFUL or I think. The Edison project could be great or it could suck. The final decision comes down to 5 people on the town council. 4 out of 5 of the members must approve this plan for it to pass. We can voice our opinions but the entire project rests on the votes of those 5 people That's why I don't really care what WOHOPEFUL has to complain about. If his comments were stated with common sense, I would at least read them. However, by now i just ignore them because they are a waste of time.

Ask yourself this one question...are you willing to pony up; thousands of dollars of your hard earned income to help millionaire developers who have stalled this project for years. Not because they weren't ready but because they could not extort millions from the hard working honest taxpayers to pay for their development. The WO taxpayers should not be the financial backers of millionaires who have no interest in our community other than to squeeze us for money. The financials for this project are unacceptable as residents struggle to pay their property taxes and incompetent politicians like Parisi ignoire their hurt and push to get millions for his developer friends in long term taxpayer backed bonds and tax abatements. When is the last time your family recieved a tax abatement?. Say NO to this ignorant tyranny!

@Wohopeful: Again...Listen carefully...you're having one of your delusions again; the recurring one where you think you know what you're talking abut when you clearly don't. Please call your skrink and get back on your meds.

So when exactly are these 5 people taking a vote on the project? Every time I come to this site I read about another delay.

Here are a few more things to contemplate over this failed project: Ask yourselves this question..when did the township ever offer a tax abatement and millions of dollars in long term bond funding to you? Then why is our puppet Mayor Parisi offering up millionms of the West Orange Taxpayer dollars to his millionaire developer friends?

These millionaire developers have stalled this project every step of the way with one purpose and that is to extort millions of dpollars form the honest hard working taxpayers to pay for their property improvements. Well that is ludicrous and it is time to say No. Instead why isn't the town issuing summons to these developers for failure to keep their property in good condition, if you or I were to allow our property to fall into disrepair the town issues summons and levies fines. Why is Mayor Parisi on the side of the millionaire developers instead of standing with the hard working citizens and make this millionaire pay their fair share! It is time to end this sham that puppet Mayor Parisi is trying to put on the backs of the honest hard working property owners of West Orange.

Here are a few more things to contemplate whenever you see and read one of wohopeful's ridiculous posts: he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

Oh really, then perhaps you would like to enlighten the tax paying citizenry that puppet Mayor Parisi wants to take millions of dollars from and hand them over to his millionaire developer friends when the last time you actually paid a property tax bill in West Orange was?

@ wohopeful: I need not "enlighten the citizenry" about any such thing as Mayor Parisi is neither anyone's puppet nor is he handing anything over to anyone to the detriment of local taxpayers. As to my real estate holdings, we can discuss them when we're on a level playing field. That is unlikely to happen as it would require you to come out from behind your screen name and identify yourself, moron.

@ wohpeful: Let me assure you that absolutely nobody is interested in the repetitive ranting of an uninformed idiot hiding behind a screen name. The hypocrisy of your proclaiming any knowledge of anything, let alone challenging me, while cowering behind a computer keyboard is apparent to all, moron.

No challenge Mr. Englert, jsut a question which you clearly answered with your non-response and repeated nonsense. When you actually pay a property tax bill in West Orange then you may have some credibility on this issue, until then no credibility whatsoever. Just more of your repeated nonsnese and playing town bully.

Gary,
WOICANTSTANDTHISTOWN was negatively responding to the latest Patch regarding the Board of Ed at 6:40 this morning. How does anyone roll out of bed and immediately start bitching? If I had to start my day like that, I'd be miserable. If he offered some solutions, it would maybe be worth reading. instead he just wakes up and starts bitching. Who wants to read that?????????????

Gary, I have one question regarding charter schools. If the schools are already crowded, why are we concerned if a few students go to a different place. This might be a solution so that we don't need to build an an additional building. Let the charter school get their own facility. Maybe they'll take some smart kids away but we are bursting at the seams already. Why should we be concerned if some kids go somewhere else. I know I can get an honest answer from you.

Excellent answers. Thank you.